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Post by happykillmore on Dec 10, 2006 18:21:04 GMT -5
Very important please read. When I was going to El Capitan and Half Dome in 1992 , One of the biggest questions was how many bars should we use because of the rope weight and what about spacers. Some guys who had done El cap before said that they used 4 bars and had to do leg wraps to stop at the bottom and just laughed it off. No one really had an answer so we were moving into unknown territory where people were using spacers on big drops but were not adding bars. On our trip we found the answer to this question not to be a laughing matter. Everyone on the trip had experience but going from 600' to 2600' is a completely different game. You must use a bigger rack because of the rope weight and as you know on big drops you are usually on new rope which is slick to say the least. A spacer on a 1000' drop may not be necessary but on a 2000' drop , you better think again. But remember when you add a spacer you should add a bar to your rack because you are limiting the amount of friction you can generate from the bars surrounding the spacer and you may need an extra bar at the bottom as the rope weight decreases. Using a haul system is the safest way to go over the edge because you use more bars and when the rope weight is lowered you can remove bars as needed. One member of our expidition went over with the rope weight and 3 bars. when he got all of his weight on the rope he couldnt slow himself because of the spacers and he died to make a long story short. So here are my recommendations from experience. Spacers are needed between the first and second bar only and remember to add another bar to your rack in case you need it. Some people use more spacers but you better KNOOOOOOOOOOOOW what your doing and be amoung the elite. You may be rappelling with your backpac so be prepared. only remove it after experience on big drops with new ropes tells you you dont need it. AND NEVER go below 5 bars with one spacer unless after much experience and trial and error tell you that you just cant move because of the rope weight, without removing another bar. This post is dedicated to the memory of Rob moore.
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 12, 2006 1:46:08 GMT -5
"Some guys who had done El cap before said that they used 4 bars and had to do leg wraps to stop at the bottom" No problem, just stop and add a bar xxx feet off the ground. Worked for me. "No one really had an answer so we were moving into unknown territory where people were using spacers on big drops but were not adding bars." Just who were you asking? As I said, why not add a bar? "On our trip we found the answer to this question not to be a laughing matter." How high off the ground did that come to you? "A spacer on a 1000' drop may not be necessary but on a 2000' drop , you better think again." Since you double posted here and in the spacer thread I'll assume that is the reason for the 1000' referral above. I picked 1000 feet to try and get as many responses as possible with big rappels. I could have upped the ante with a really impressive number but the club that has experienced those heights is small indeed. I have thought quite a bit about it and I'm saying I did Thor without spacers, El Cap without spacers,twice and Half Dome without spacers. So you might see where I would question those that say one must use spacers on the really big drops. I also question your title " Spacers should not be a matter of debate". Who's in charge and when did they decide? "One member of our expidition went over with the rope weight and 3 bars. when he got all of his weight on the rope he couldnt slow himself because of the spacers and he died to make a long story short." Interesting.......I talked to the man supposedly standing just above Mr Moore and his recollection was that Mr Moore was on 4 bars at the time. The gentleman turned to retrieve a camera to hand to Moore and said when he turned back Moore was in a rapid (uncontrolled) descent. I also heard that his rappel device was found on rope with 4 bars engaged. BTW....have you heard of the "4 bar rule"? Any info you can add about Mr Moore's rappel would be appreciated. Oh yeah, sometime after Mr Moore's death I was involved in a rappel on El Cap and I decided to experiment with my rack and maintain an out of control rappel. I rappelled the same way Mr Moore did except I had no spacers. Bottom line is that without spacers I could not maintain free fall without manipulating bars with my hands. Once I let go of the rack I would eventually come to a stop. I do agree with one thing you said in your post. Spacers were a direct cause of death for Mr Moore. Kent
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 12, 2006 20:39:53 GMT -5
I'm not trying to get into a peeing contest mr rebel. and you are right he did have 4 bars i stand corrected. he had spacers between no. i and 2 and 2 and 3. My point about the 3 bars is that he must have accidentaly moved the rope the wrong way while jim yoemans was reaching for the camera. and the 4th bar dropped that is the only explanation for what happened since he was stopped and under control at this point. and the way his rack was set up he couldnt have recovered and yes the rack was still connected at the bottom. . You are obviously qualified as am i and i therefore was not talking to you. I also knew what to do at el cap but obviously there were those who did not. when i see this question continue to come up and the answers still leaving many questions as is detailed here on the message board then i feel compelled to offer advice to those who are asking. If you dont want to use spacers then dont. you know what your doing and dont need my advice. As do so many others. but people are going to use them and they should be informed rather than to leave them to learn on their own. congradulations on your accomplishments. i havent done thor it is too cold for me. and i dont like polar bears. Please post my grade on my next post. thank you. i am just trying to help and since i was there when it happened i have a bit of a tender spot regarding this subject. i dont want it to happen again and i stand by the advice i gave once again to those who are going to use spacers and did ask for the input.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 12, 2006 22:38:37 GMT -5
by the way so as to not be misinterpreted, when i said as do so many others , i mean there are so MAAANY others that do NOOOOOT need my advice. Just so there are no misunderstandings.
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 12, 2006 23:24:14 GMT -5
lets cut to the chase..........What exactly is the meaning of the thread title? Why should we not debate spacers? Kent
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 13, 2006 7:55:45 GMT -5
I was responding to a specific post that got my attention. I should have worded it differently in order to avoid misunderstanding. I can certainly see that i opened the door wide open. We can debate all day long whether spacers should be used or whether they are needed or right for you or me. Where i think there should be very little room for debate is when we are giving advice to those that are going to put spacers on their rack and do not have the experience to know what are the proper safety parameters we should give them advice that would keep them from the potential of getting into trouble. I say this only because assuming everyone is going to make the right decision because they have some experience has proven to be fatal. Thru the fault of no one there. But i think we can now give better info to those that are curious. I think you will agree with me that if you were teaching someone to repel that you would tell them to never go below 4 bars. Although it could be safely done with no spacers if you have experience ,you would certainly not tell someone to start there. And i am saying that if that is the srarting point then we should all agree that if you add a spacer you should add a bar when on rappel. And only remove it if experience tells you that you can safely do so. I think that would be a good safe place to begin. Sorry for the way i worded it i can see the misunderstanding and i hope we can agree on this as i safe starting point for all who are inquiring. and dont know where to begin.
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Post by Tim White on Dec 13, 2006 10:10:36 GMT -5
happykillmore- Want me to change the Subject line to something like:
Spacers...a matter of debate.
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 13, 2006 19:02:00 GMT -5
I probably shouldnt have said anything tim. Its just that i happened across this site and i have always been so safety conscious and i'm sure that many of the people on this site are teaching others to rappel and i know there are many qualified people here. Some of them i know personally. It surprized me that there wasn't more info cause some of these people wanted a better answer i thnk, to a subject that has proven fatal and i think has had some close calls. And i thought there were some very good answers and i dont think i know everything. I use the same setup as you. But i guess we are training people who are going to go on and train others and i wonder if we could do better. However i know this is just a forum and not brain surgery. Please remove my post and i'm sorry if i offended anyone. Next time i'll think before i blurt out my passions.
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Post by Rebel Rouser on Dec 13, 2006 22:13:54 GMT -5
Happy, I would not worry much about Rebel's ideas on rappelling. I would concentrate on safe technique and judging by your posts you do that. I'm glad you think about the circumstances involved in Mr Moore's death. He paid the ultimate price for that lesson and you will learn it and pass it on thus perhaps saving future fatalities. I would venture saying that you and I would agree on more things than we would disagree on. Please don't remove anything on my account. Nothing here has offended me as I welcome ALL views and opinions. I think I've blurted out my passions a time or two myself. I know ..some of you right now are thinking more like every post! Anyway, keep posting,Happy, I'm interested in hearing your opinions. Kent
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 13, 2006 23:23:07 GMT -5
WELL I SURE THANK YOU MR REBEL. I also thank you for questioning me because my speaking and writing skills are certainly less than legendary and so i would say that you brought out of me what i was really trying to say. I think sometimes we overstate the safety of this sport. I know i have. My hope is that my ignorance is passed on to no one. can i get an AMEN.
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Post by Tim White on Dec 14, 2006 10:15:52 GMT -5
I changed the title of this topic from Spacers should not be a matter of debate to Spacers...a matter of debate to better reflect the subject matter. happykillmore- we welcome your opinion and appreciate your willingness to debate. Please continue to post. Kent and I disagree (I think ) on the use of spacers. My opinion, derived from experience, is much like yours. But I read Kent’s every word on the subject due to the fact that he may share something that I’ve not thought of or experienced. Debate, discussion, etc. on such subjects adds to our collective knowledge base. Thanks to both of you for your post!
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Post by happykillmore on Dec 15, 2006 22:25:20 GMT -5
I just wanted to straighten out a few things. Not because Kent and i do not agree because i think for the most part we do though i am not speaking for him. We dont know each other but i can tell you i resp[ect him and think we have the same goal though i have a hard time pinning my thoughts for posterity. In the incident we spoke of the person started off with 6 bars and when the going got tough he removed 3 bars at the same time,because of the rope weight. He was warned by a member of our team that he should add a bar. The rest is history. He added one more but it wasnt enough. The gentlemen i spoke of earlier who did leg wraps only had 4 bars on their rack and couldnt add more because they only had 4 bars. I only say this because i want anyone reading this post to know there are many qualified people on this site and i trust them all. Including Mr kent who it seams that we disagree though we dont it is just due to an error on my bad english. You can trust the advice you get here please just make sure you dont have any questions when you go over the edge especially if you are using spacers on a large wall. These people can help you and are willing to do so . Since i have witnessed the death of a team member. I guess i am a little overanxious in some areas. The people on this site are willing and able to help you. Please do not venture out if you have any questions , without getting the right advice.
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Post by eyecave on Feb 16, 2007 1:59:00 GMT -5
OH GOD.....another debate over spacers.....jeez....this is one of the straws that got me thrown off tagnet......oh well, here goes nothing.......
spacers are perfectly safe.....but.......the caver using them has to understand vertical work backwards and forwards...........
spacers do two things.....they make the rack more predictable (more uniform) and they make the rack more sensitive..........
rope moisture, rope mud, rope age and use and length, rope diameter, rope type and manufacturer, caver weight, caver sex, caver age, experience, mental state, strength, conditioning, condition, caver gear weight, caver mud and water weight, bar type, bar age, number, and use, rack length, rappeling device, type of gloves or lack of, and anything else i didn't think of influences rappels........
spacers can easily make it impossible for the rack to jam.......if the spacers are the same width as the diameter of the rope the rack might not be able to jam......if you lose conciousness you will crater, most likely...........you might be moving slowly, but you will probably crater if you have a heart attack while you are rappeling!...has that ever happened?...if you have larger spacers you will significantly increase the likelihood that cratering gets more likely in an uncontrolled situation....
... ..spacers will also make the rap a lot more sensitive to bar movement........the rack becomes more sensitive and you have to do less to go faster..or to slow down if you get a little too fast....
.rebel rouser, a staunch anti bar (or he just don't need them) said that when he turned loose of his rack and rope he slowed down and stopped...he said that a loss of control is not possible if you do not use spacers...............i can agree with him completely.......
....using spacers, when i did the exact same thing(released my grip on the rope and rack and just sat back).... i sped up till i was going too fast....but beecause i was using spacers i had already added a bar which i had spaced all the way to the bottom of the rack.....and after the wind was whistling thru my ears i then regained control very easily by simply moving up that bottom bar an inch or so......slowed, stopped, added a bar and other things, and continued down................
thus the difference between the spacer equipped rack and the non spacer equipped rack......i have been on more than one expedition with rebel rouser, he is good with using the last bar to maintain and gain control over life and death without using spacers....for me i like the trade off of having bars that i don't have to move so strongly and with such force..........by using spacers i gain a degree of smoothness.... and.... i gain a reserve bar by making the last bar less of a controlling bar...........don't put spacers on your rack if you don't want a more touchy rack...................
on the other hand, by using spacers you can keep a bar on that you might have to drop to speed up or you might have to wait till that last 500 feet of a big wall rap to go fast and creep the first 2500 feet.............
ONE OTHER FINAL MINOR POINT...........YOU SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO USE YOUR RIGHT HAND OR RIGHT THIGH OR right BUTTOCK TO SLOW DOWN....................................THAT BAR IN YOUR LEFT HAND?.....THATS HOW YOU SLOW DOWN...........your right hand is a back up system.........so.............all of you right handed guys........you are rappeling with your bars and racks backwards....the entire caving community.....backwards.....humans are stupid.....unless the backup should be the strong hand......then, well, i am only human........
..........hahhahahahhahhahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahahaha....its really nuts from my side of view.....surprise, surprise........
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